I recently received a question from Chris Rayner, as it is such a common issue I thought I would share it with everyone. Thanks for the question Chris, hope this helps to answer it for you:
Hi, I have a big problem. My Tiler has just started to grout the lovely porcelain tiles in my new kitchen using dark grout on the pale tiles. But the grout has stained the tiles! On close inspection the box of the tiles says they should be sealed and the company accepts no responsibility. Can I get the dark grout out of the tiles? We have already tried HG Cement Grout film remover. Thanks, Chris…
Hopefully, this will help, but a lot depends on the tile and grout:
Firstly, the problem arises due to tiny, microscopic holes in the surface of the porcelain, These are like air bubbles under the surface which, when the tile is polished (which means grinding away the surface until smooth) have their tops taken off, thus we get small irregular holes, not always big enough to see with the naked eye, but certainly big enough to become filled with grout.
Now imagine lots of these little holes all filling up with grout, in the same way that lots of tiny pixels make up a digital image, lots of these filled holes make up the appearance of a stain. The problem is that it can be very difficult, and I’m afraid, in some cases, almost impossible to remove.
The diagram below shows the holes in a standard porcelain:
In the next diagram the dotted line indicates the amount of tile that will be removed during the polishing process. As you can see, the polishing will ‘take the tops off’ the holes:
In the last diagram, you can see that the newly exposed holes can now be filled with the grout to create the staining effect you see:
The grout is usually made up of three basic components: Cement, sand and a man-made, synthetic latex or polymer. Grouts may also be tinted with a pigment. The micro-pores are not normally big enough to accept the sand grains so they usually become filled with pigmented cement and or the polymer.
If you were dealing with just a cement (no polymer) then the product you have tried might well have done the trick – a standard mild acid cleaner (that one is based on a dilute phosphoric acid which is ok, please avoid cleaners based on hydrochloric acid or HCL). However, often there is a combination of polymer and the pigmented cement. This creates a problem because we cannot simply rely on an acidic cleaner as the polymer shields the cement from the acid, rendering it ineffective.
So we also need to use a solvent to go after the polymer. A solvent-based sealer stripper will soften and break down the polymer, while it is in this state we can use the acid to attack the now less protected cement. In the worst cases we would also consider adding a micro-abrasive cleaner like Microscrub. We do this for two reasons, the nano-technology will allow the liquids we are using (that is the solvent stripper and phosphoric Acid type cleaner) to ‘relax’ and penetrate the micro pores more effectively. And secondly, the abrasive particles will help to safely grind out the grout without damaging the tile.
Here is the procedure I would recommend you try:
- Sweep or vacuum the floor
- Apply your solvent stripper NEAT and spread over the floor
- Leave the stripper to dwell for between 30 minutes and 1 hour, keep it wet with more solvent if required
- Now mix the cement residue cleaner (based on phosphoric acid or similar, NOT HCL) water (between 1:5 and 1:10) and ADD it to the solution of the stripper while still on the floor
- Leave both solutions for a few more minutes then agitate with a white nylon pad
- At this stage add in a small amount of Microscrub – you may notice some fizzing – this will be the acidic cleaner reacting with the calcium in the Microscrub but this should be minimal as the acid should be nearly exhausted or ‘spent’ having reacted with the cement in the grout. We are adding the Microscrub now to make use of the calcium abrasive on the now weakened cement/polymer residue.
- Use a squeegee to remove the slurry so you can see how you are doing, mop or wet vac the slurry up.
- Using fresh clean water, rinse the floor, mop or wet vac up the rinse water
- Polish the floor dry with an old towel.
Hope this helps
Ian
Copyright Ian Taylor and The Tile and Stone Blog.co.uk, 2013. See copyright notice above.
Before you try anything try white vinegar to clean tiles, sounds rediculous but honestly I had cream non polished ceramic tiles turn almost grey after using dark grout. I read this forum and my heart sank! It sounded like a lot of work to get my tiles back. My girlfriend suggested white vinegar and I almost laughed at this, but it worked!! I had already tried tile adhesive and grout residue remover which is acid based to no avail. So in my eyes white vinegar is the cure all now!
Oh please can someone help me. I have had light colured anti slip porcelain floor tiles laid with dark grey grout. After a few weeks the tiles appeared so dirty and I have tried everything to get them clean. The Manufacture is saying that the tile could not have been cleaned properly to get rid of the grout residue afterwards. I have tried high strength ceramic floor cleaner and left it in for 15 mins all different strengths and nothing is getting them clean. My tiler is saying that the grout residue excuse is rubbish. I don’t know who or what to believe but I just want to feel these damn tiles clean!! Any suggestins would be welcome.
Thanks
Anita Leyman
Hi Anita,
Ok not sure if I can help, but first of all you do not say what type of cleaner you have used? – It is not uncommon for a tiler to leave some grout residue on a textured/anti-slip tile, but you would have been able to see this right away, esp as your tiles are light grey and the grout is dark. they way you describe this seems to suggest that it has ‘become’ dirty over a short period of time, rather than looking dirty from day one, am I reading this correctly?
If it is cement residue (grout haze) then you may need an acidic cleaner – you could do a very quick test, use some grout residue remover (there are many on the market – mine is called Grout Haze Plus, for example) but whichever one you go for do not use a brick cleaner/bring acid – way too strong. Just try a half capful of neat cleaner on a test area and give it a bit of a rub with a nylon pad – if you see any ‘alka saltza – like’ fizzing – then this is showing you that there is a reaction between the acidic cleaner and the cement in the grout (sometimes with modern, polymer modified grouts this is not as obvious and a little scrubbing helps to get it started). If you do see this then that is a very clear sign that there is cement residue from the grouting on the tiles, even if this was not immediately apparent, it can attract dirt over a short period of time. If there is then you will need to treat the entire area with a grout haze cleaner – only when you do it for real you will need to dilute the product. The goal is to use as little or as weak a solution as possible to do the job, and follow this procedure: Pre wet floor, then add dilute (eg 1:5) grout haze cleaner, allow to sit for a couple of minutes, scrub/agitate, extract (hiring wet vac is extremely helpful here), RINSE with clean water, finally extract. It is not unusual for this cleaning action to affect the shade of the grout itself – making it slightly lighter.
If it is not cement haze then I am afraid it is more likely to be a function of the anti slip quality: Floors that grip people, grip dirt. Whilst there is no such thing as a ‘non-slip’ floor, floors with structured or textured surfaces sold as ‘anti-slip’ offer an increased co efficient of friction – in other words more grip, to varying degrees. There is a trade off though, the ‘grippier’ the surface, the harder it is to keep clean. If you have a really textured surface then you may find that the trade-off for this increased grip, is that the floor requires more frequent, more intense cleaning. By more intense I mean not just relying on a quick wipe with a mop, but more frequent (than for smooth tiles) use of stronger detergents, longer dwell times and more of a scrubbing action.
I hope this helps but please feel free to come back to me
Ian
Hi Ian
Many thanks for you very detailed reply. I need to find out if my tiler used a polymer grout. I have used lithofin cleaner. Started with 10:1 5:1 3:1. Only made a slight difference , then the solution upset my asthma so I have stopped there. The supplier is coming next week to try an alternative cleaner.
I bought porcelain thinking they were the best and would be easy to clean but thought my days were over by not having to get in my hands and knees and scrub the floor. If I do ever get them clean they are going to be high maintenance form then on to keep them clean. I appreciate everything you are saying but I must say it is not looking very positive. Should have stuck to Karndean!!!! I will keep you posted.
Hi Ian, I have a floor of porcelain tiles that have been down 13 years. I had a few tiles with chips out of them so decided to have them pulled up and replaced with the same tiles that I had kept in a box in the garage in case I ever needed them. They came from the same batch as the ones on the floor. Once the chipped tiles were removed and the new ones put in place the new ones are sooo much lighter and my floor is ruined. What would have caused this? I am gathering that the old ones have discoloured somehow over the years. What should I do to get them to all look the same? Thanks for your help.
Hi Lor,
OK, It is possible that it is just ingrained dirt that might be able to be removed – however, 13 years is a good life for most floors so even something as hard wearing as a porcelain floor is going to show signs of wear. The thing is the wear is gradual and over time, and compared to the other tiles on the floor they all wear at the same rate and so it is not really noticeable. But when you put a fresh, untouched new tile against it the difference is stark.
It also depends on what surface the porcelain had, rough textured, polished, flat matt etc – some will hold more dirt others will wear faster etc.
I would certainly try a deep clean with an alkaline cleaner – allowing it time to work, give it s good scrub, with a scrub brush or nylon scrub pad, maybe do it twice and rinse really well with clean water. If you can get hold of a wet vac that will help greatly with the extraction of the dirty and rinse water. If the tiles are/were textured then a scrub brush will be better and also you may benefit from adding an abrasive cream cleaner.
You could contact a colleague of mine – search for Aqua-Seal.com.au – he will have the products I mention and is a great source of advice also.
I suspect you have a chance of greatly improving the look of the old floor so it is worth a go but there is also a chance that there will remain a noticeable difference due to 13 years of wear
Hope this helps
Ian
Hi Ian
I see someone else has had the same problem as me. I should like to say that with your help and advice my tiles are now back to normal. It took a lot of hard scrubbing with and acid formula to do this as there was a lot of dirt just kept getting trapped in with the grout residue.
My tiler was adamant this wasn’t the problem but it seems that as the grout wasn’t properly cleaned off in the beginning the problem just got worse for me. I wish Manufactures and Suppliers would warn you of this especially with tiles like I had that were non slip. It has been nearly two weeks since they were “acid attacked” and so far so good. Good luck Lor with your tiles .
Thanks again Ian for your in depth knowledge of tiles and helping me out.
Regards
Anita
Glad it worked out
Ian
Thank you Tom for the white vinegar trick. Worked like a charm, a real life saver.
Hi there I know this is old.
I have laid glazed tiles made in Italy. they are 100% glazed and not polished I am staring at the box as I type. They are morrocan style with whites and grey patterns. I have grouted them in charcoal however when I washed the grout away on the tile this morning it has stained the tile. Before grouting I extensively researched glazed porceline tiles and they said they don’t need sealed. What do I do is there a simple cleaning solution I can use as the above steps seems to be for unglazed porous tiles.
Many thanks
Gillian
Hi,
Yes the steps outlined are for the type of polished porcelain that has tiny holes in the surface. some glazes can have similar issues but we don’t see anywhere near as much. The issue here might be that the polymer in your grout is making it stick to the glaze. The first thing I would try is a mild phosphoric acid cleaner, The grout film should be much easier to remove off a glaze than from within the surface of polished porcelain. You could try any grout haze remover that contains phosphoric acid. We also have one called Grout Haze Plus on the All for Stone Website. We have had some success removing even polymer-modified films with this
Hope this helps
Ian
HI
We had a “tiler” lay some porcelain tiles in our living room (27m2), job took weeks!
We couldnt clean the tiles as adhesive, cement and grout had all been trod in and left to sit for over a month, the tile manufactures say not to use any acidic or alkaline cleaners, we feel like the tiles are stained and will never come clean.
Some advise would be great!
thanks
Hi John,
OK, sounds like he was not that experienced. I don’t understand the advice from the manufacturers, most tiles are fine with alkaline cleaners esp porcelain same for acidic cleaners – as long as they are safe cleaners based on milder acids like phosphoric, the ones designed for tiles. UNLESS that is, there is some inherent issue with the tiles they have sold you (I have experience of some black porcelain that was so poor that when cleaned some of the coating that had been applied to artificially intensify the colour, came away leaving the tile looking patchy and dull. This should NOT happen if it does it is a sub-par tile.
Usually, modern adhesive and grout sold for porcelain tiles are quite heavily modified with polymers. This is for a number of performance enhancements, but it means that the normal acidic cleaners are sometimes not able to do the job on their own. They are still where I would start though. In your case, I would start with a suitable acidic cleaner (we have one called Grout Haze Plus) but TEST it first on a spare tile if you have one – just to make sure that it has no undesired effect on the tiles. Then do a limited test on the floor: Pre-wet the floor then apply some dilute cleaner (say 3 or 4 to 1 with water-apply it, leave it to sit for a few minutes then scrub with a white nylon abrasive pad (the white ones won’t scratch the tiles). Rinse with clean water, buff dry and inspect, repeat.
It may take several applications and thicker lumps of adhesive may need to be scraped away with a hard plastic scraper of some kind (avoid metal). The safer nature of these acid cleaners means they are not strong – just enough to wash away thin films of cement so you may find that you have to go back and forth between wetting with cleaner and scraping – each time softening the lump and removing a little more.
See how yo get on with that process and come back to us if you require any further help
Hope that helps
Ian
How do you get orange / brown staining of porcelain flags .Its mostly around the joints were the grouting is.
Hi,
I assume you are talking about the newer, thicker outdoor porcelain being sold for patios? Or do you mean porcelain tiles indoors? The reason I ask is that we are seeing a lot of issues with patios where the newer resin-type jointing compounds are staining (particularly stone). However, the same thing happens inside with polymer-modified grouts. Either way, it could be leaching from the grout, it could be a thin mico film of the resin left stuck to the surface, it could also be the classic micro pore staining common with porcelain. I would try a solvent stripper – as a test try some acetone – if you don’t have any the old-style clear nail varnish remover should do. Rub a little on the stain and see if the cleaning pad picks up any colour or if it removes any of the stains. If it does it is indicating that you need a stripper. We have one called Strip-It on the All for Stone website but you could also try white spirits.
Hope that helps
Ian
Hi yes I do mean the new thick porcelain flags, the stain has developed over a period of weeks around the grouting.
Ok, well this could be leaching, pigments/resins leaching slowly from the joint into/onto the tile or it could be something else, staining in the grout etc.
Try the acetone test I mentioned before, also try some dilute bleach on one or two inconspicuous areas. Are you able to send me a picture? It might help.
Ian
What is the best product to clean and seal glazed crackle tile and very light colored unsanded grout on a shower wall?
Hi, OK although I tend to prefer water-based sealers, a solvent based one might work best here. Basically, any proprietary solvent-based, impregnating sealer will help.
HOpe this helps
Ian
HI GOT SOME PORCELIN TILES POLISHED AFTER GROUTING THEIR IS A STAIN AROUND
THE TILES HOW DO I REMOVE THE STAIN TILES ARE LOUNGE POLISHED 60X60
Hi, sorry you are having problems. This is an old issue that to be honest I have not had too many questions about recently. It is explained in the article but, typically the problem is that there are many tiny specs of grout residue now sitting in the tiny micro pores just under the surface. It is around the edges as that is where the most concentrated contact with the grout has occurred’ adjacent to the grout joints; as the tiles are so large there is little reason to spread the grout all over the entire face of the tile in the usual manor. Hence the ‘staining’ is limited to the edges.
I would suggest a combined stripper and phosphoric acid-based cleaner approach. Using our All for Stone Products (Strip-It, a non hydrocarbon solvent stripper, and Grout Haze Plus) as an example:
1) First make sure that the areas to be treated are clean and dry.
2) Conduct a test FIRST – before embarking on the entire floor – This is IMPORTANT – SOME polished porcelain ties have been known to have artificial coatings that are more easily removed than the grout stain itself, leaving a very patchy tile surface (if this happens it is a poor quality product and should be considered a fault) Always test first on a spare piece of tile if you can.
3) Apply Strip-It, neat, to the area to be treated and rub it on to get good contact, then LEAVE it to dwell for at least 30 minutes. Do not let it dry out, if it does start to dry in that time add more stripper and agitate it again.
4) WITHOUT REMOVING THE STIP-IT – now apply DILUTE Grout Haze Plus (say at 1 part GHP to 5 parts clean water) add that to the test area, agitate with a white nylon pad for a couple of minutes
5) Pick up the solution with a mop or preferably a wet-vac
6) Rinse the floor with fresh clean water (add a little neutral pH soap if you wish to help remove the cleaning chemicals)
7) Mop or wet-vac the floor dry
8) Buff dry with an old towel
When the floor is dry inspect, if it has made some difference you might need to repeat the process again. If it has done nothing then you might have to try a stronger, solvent – based stripper and maybe add a microa-brasive type cleaner.
Hope that helps
Ian